This article resonates deeply with my 36-year marriage journey. My husband and I were married for 24 years before we divorced—even missing our 25th anniversary—before God ultimately restored us and we remarried.The most painful part is that I grew up in the church and graduated from Christ College Irvine as a DCE, yet I still missed it. Looking back, the biblical teaching on womanhood and marriage simply wasn't this explicit. I'm not even sure I would have fully understood it when I was younger, because the volume of society—the television, music, and messages telling women we had to "have it all"—was just so much louder than what I heard from the pulpit or read in the Bible and catechism. Culture told us that being a wife and a mom wasn't enough, enticing us to chase careers rather than be satisfied with the beautiful vocations God called us to. Because I bought into those loud cultural lies, I missed out, and my four children and stepson missed out on seeing that strong foundation. It is a bittersweet grief that I woke up so late in the game, but discovering the true depth of God’s love and His design has entirely transformed me. I share this raw truth because I hope younger women—especially those sitting in church pews—will hear this explicit message and wake up to His beautiful design much sooner than I did.
I remember this post and it painted an image that stayed with me. I don't see anything inaccurate and I believe it's a beneficial description to contemplate. Not knowing the complexities of anyone's life here, I just see this as a warning, a hurt, and a clear description of someone I do not want to be, yet see in myself at times. It's not a beautiful image and it causes strife in a marriage (I know).
This fits with a word I have been contemplating this year and has been brought to my attention a lot: "willing". I see it very clearly in myself and many women around me. We do the work before us but with unwilling hearts, lacking joy, nursing resentment, angry that no one seems to understand our sacrifice. Even each other, even other women. It's often an internal contest of who has the harder job at any given moment. It's a "martyr complex" and I am working through it myself.
I heard a clarification recently. If something is keeping you up at night, angry that it was taken from you, upset with the life you have, you did NOT sacrifice whatever that is. It is not self sacrifice when something is taken from you, you are desperate and angry and clutching to get it back. You cannot mentally categorize something as self sacrifice and lying to yourself in that way, when something was taken from you and you cling to it so desperately. This could be hours alone without noisy children, being able to spend the time and money on ourselves and what we want, the mental burdens of trying to figure out what is best for each child or for the marriage, the physical burden of pregnancy, birth, and the weaknesses in your body after that never seem to go away, the loneliness.. We need to set these things down and sacrifice them.
I listened to the book of Philippians straight through the other day and that is such a gift in this regard. But I couldn't help thinking, if Paul was another man and said this to the modern woman, he would be called many things and I imagine "insensitive", "doesn't understand" would be a few.
This is a topic that is really close to my heart and really been on the forefront of my mind the last few years. (Looking back, it's probably partially to do with your highlighting similar subjects.)
A prayer that has been on my mind is "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.." Because I've been keeping an eye out for the word "willing", I noticed a translation that said "sustain me with a willing spirit". How beautiful.. I have since sang that to myself in those words because they speak so clearly to this feeling in the moment. Sustain us with willing hearts! I honestly think that is one of the deepest, most basic things that are going wrong in a situation like this post. It describes a lot of us women. We are simply unwilling to do the work that is given to us (even the work we create for ourselves!), but also unable to admit that to ourselves sometimes. It is easy to feel the higher moral ground when you are seeing all the important responsibilities you attend to in a day. And being women, we naturally what to connect over people and close relationships and all that nurturing, beginning as a young girl with her baby doll. We set ourselves up for hurt and disappointment if we find ourselves doing it for thankfulness and recognition. It is much more pleasant and easy on the emotions when we set things down as a sacrifice with a willing heart. Easier said than done. (A note: did we expect our dolls to thank us? Did we get upset our dolls didn't notice our hard work and sacrifices? I know the analogy only goes so far but it does make me contemplate: when did we lose our joy of simply helping people? Nurturing lives? Caring for them? Our joy in that used to simply come from the doing, from having someone to love and care for.)
Another side note, the phrase "husband gets the final word" just doesn't sit well with me and I can't quite put my finger on it. I do not use this phrase myself because it doesn't quite explain how I feel. It moves past the roles that husband and wife are each in. Yes, a wife helps and of course talks with her husband. But why is she trying to make a decision at all? Why is she coming to him like that? I think the picture is so much clearer when the wife asks questions, is looking for wisdom, comes to the table wanting to listen and understand. "The final word" sounds like the woman is finally succumbing. Maybe it is this way sometimes? But I have trouble understanding why we would want to describe our relationships like this. I think we should look at our husbands as a king of the home. A good king, a king under the headship of the Perfect King. Why do we come into discussions like "the final word" was a debate or coming to an agreement, instead of trusting that he has the best in mind for you and your family? That he really does have wisdom that you don't? Sometimes he will seek the queen to discuss as well and the queen of the house isn't a fool. But she isn't the king. The king and queen don't come together, discuss, and he gets "the final word". He already has the authority, he doesn't need to go over it with the wifey, doesn't need her approval. And yet, he often still communicates and listens and attempts to understand her feelings, because he loves his wife and sees that she has thoughts that are valuable to the kingdom, especially in the domains she works in so often. And remember, he's a GOOD king. So good, that he wants to please the highest King of Kings. I may be using this final word phrase way deeper than others may mean it, so I am trying to understand the phrase in the way they use it. In my perspective, it just doesn't seem adequate for the situation.
(Sorry for such a long comment. I am passionate about this. Hopefully the comment isn't too disruptive and may spark more thoughts for others.)
The final word as in most affairs at the house are delegated to me but then there are some things only he can decide. Are you familiar with subsidiarity?
I think that's a worthwhile discussion about household tasks and delegation. Proverbs 31 shows a clear picture that a wife can still handle things in the household like you are referring to. That whole topic would certainly have unique examples for each family, unique wisdom from each king and his kingdom, and certainly much thought on the running of a home.
But I find the phrase inadequate to define headship. I am not sure why it's the default response from women who try to prove that she respects her husband as the head of the family. I would challenge someone to think about why they believe this phrase is adequate to define a husband's role in the home.
Also, I think respect has more to do with just words and is a whole demeanor. Do we approach our husband like a good king of our home? Act like that around him? Respect him in our demeanor like that? Like a queen in the presence of her king? I certainly fail at this every day. But I do see it as right and good.
Instead, picturing the whole scene as a man getting the final word in a midst of words like all the words said in the discussion have equal input and he just gets a slightly bigger vote, I have trouble reconciling these two pictures. Reigning, loving, good king vs a bigger vote in a government, the final say.
It is a fascinating discussion to me though and I am very open to hearing how someone would describe this in a way I can grasp. It's a phrase that almost sounds like it means nothing. I cannot even imagine a scenario or example of a final word happening and that it would be a good descriptor of male headship.
I read your other comments and you seem more personal to the background dynamics than I am. I am just a longtime reader/listener and have benefitted from this author, whom I have never met. So I am commenting on just the beliefs and descriptions in this post. I hope that helps to understand my silly, rambling passion on this subject. May God bless you this day.
I continue to pray regularly for the Fisk family--you, your beautiful wife, and your precious children. "Stop the White Noise" was my favorite podcast. I loved how you and Meredith modeled marriage and family life for us to witness. That was a true gift that taught me a lot. While I am devastated with the recent developments, I look forward to your update that God is restoring things within your family.
As a woman reader, sometimes I am left wondering what all is going on out there. Maybe because I had and have a great relationship with my dad, I do not seem to have this kind of angst in my life. I have been with my husband for over thirty years. Neither one of us is perfect and I can be bossy. But when push comes to shove, I know he gets the deciding vote. So when I hear all these power dynamic woes, I wonder who are these people? It just seems so foreign to me. Like a foreign language. I don't get it. But perhaps that is all I need to say here publicly. Discretion is a good thing and I would do well to remember that. But Jonathan Fisk, I have reached out to you so many times and you have often dodged any of my help or concern. I am still here. The older sister type figure who does not hate men and certainly does not hate you. Because honestly, what the heck is going on with you , dude? You should have my email, and even my address and phone number.
Am I in the right place? Is this where we are to comment? I have a very narrow band of social media in which I participate and I am not familiar with this platform. I think I was first commenting on Titus' post, LOL. But I did want to comment on the Fisk's latest newsletter. I can certainly see with the unfortunate timing how someone could think this 10/25 post was specifically about Meredith rather than a more general word on the subject. Everyhting did change so quickly back then and we subscribers and supporters were left confused in the whirlwind and secrecy. I still am, frankly. I commend Jonathan for not gossiping about Meredith or the rest of situation but the vacuum of information has really sucked. Ha, I wasn't even trying to make a pun there. Anyways. I know the Jonathan Fisk we all have known and loved for more than a decade now is still in there. I hope this secrecy and confusion is relieved someday and we get to see that guy again.
I am not surprised that women are fallen creatures. I (and not a few good men) are weary of being scolded for pointing out that they are, as though this somehow were proof of our own rapscallioness and as though we would do better to baptize the evil “good” and carry on walking in darkness.
I remember this post too!
This article resonates deeply with my 36-year marriage journey. My husband and I were married for 24 years before we divorced—even missing our 25th anniversary—before God ultimately restored us and we remarried.The most painful part is that I grew up in the church and graduated from Christ College Irvine as a DCE, yet I still missed it. Looking back, the biblical teaching on womanhood and marriage simply wasn't this explicit. I'm not even sure I would have fully understood it when I was younger, because the volume of society—the television, music, and messages telling women we had to "have it all"—was just so much louder than what I heard from the pulpit or read in the Bible and catechism. Culture told us that being a wife and a mom wasn't enough, enticing us to chase careers rather than be satisfied with the beautiful vocations God called us to. Because I bought into those loud cultural lies, I missed out, and my four children and stepson missed out on seeing that strong foundation. It is a bittersweet grief that I woke up so late in the game, but discovering the true depth of God’s love and His design has entirely transformed me. I share this raw truth because I hope younger women—especially those sitting in church pews—will hear this explicit message and wake up to His beautiful design much sooner than I did.
I remember this post and it painted an image that stayed with me. I don't see anything inaccurate and I believe it's a beneficial description to contemplate. Not knowing the complexities of anyone's life here, I just see this as a warning, a hurt, and a clear description of someone I do not want to be, yet see in myself at times. It's not a beautiful image and it causes strife in a marriage (I know).
This fits with a word I have been contemplating this year and has been brought to my attention a lot: "willing". I see it very clearly in myself and many women around me. We do the work before us but with unwilling hearts, lacking joy, nursing resentment, angry that no one seems to understand our sacrifice. Even each other, even other women. It's often an internal contest of who has the harder job at any given moment. It's a "martyr complex" and I am working through it myself.
I heard a clarification recently. If something is keeping you up at night, angry that it was taken from you, upset with the life you have, you did NOT sacrifice whatever that is. It is not self sacrifice when something is taken from you, you are desperate and angry and clutching to get it back. You cannot mentally categorize something as self sacrifice and lying to yourself in that way, when something was taken from you and you cling to it so desperately. This could be hours alone without noisy children, being able to spend the time and money on ourselves and what we want, the mental burdens of trying to figure out what is best for each child or for the marriage, the physical burden of pregnancy, birth, and the weaknesses in your body after that never seem to go away, the loneliness.. We need to set these things down and sacrifice them.
I listened to the book of Philippians straight through the other day and that is such a gift in this regard. But I couldn't help thinking, if Paul was another man and said this to the modern woman, he would be called many things and I imagine "insensitive", "doesn't understand" would be a few.
This is a topic that is really close to my heart and really been on the forefront of my mind the last few years. (Looking back, it's probably partially to do with your highlighting similar subjects.)
A prayer that has been on my mind is "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.." Because I've been keeping an eye out for the word "willing", I noticed a translation that said "sustain me with a willing spirit". How beautiful.. I have since sang that to myself in those words because they speak so clearly to this feeling in the moment. Sustain us with willing hearts! I honestly think that is one of the deepest, most basic things that are going wrong in a situation like this post. It describes a lot of us women. We are simply unwilling to do the work that is given to us (even the work we create for ourselves!), but also unable to admit that to ourselves sometimes. It is easy to feel the higher moral ground when you are seeing all the important responsibilities you attend to in a day. And being women, we naturally what to connect over people and close relationships and all that nurturing, beginning as a young girl with her baby doll. We set ourselves up for hurt and disappointment if we find ourselves doing it for thankfulness and recognition. It is much more pleasant and easy on the emotions when we set things down as a sacrifice with a willing heart. Easier said than done. (A note: did we expect our dolls to thank us? Did we get upset our dolls didn't notice our hard work and sacrifices? I know the analogy only goes so far but it does make me contemplate: when did we lose our joy of simply helping people? Nurturing lives? Caring for them? Our joy in that used to simply come from the doing, from having someone to love and care for.)
Another side note, the phrase "husband gets the final word" just doesn't sit well with me and I can't quite put my finger on it. I do not use this phrase myself because it doesn't quite explain how I feel. It moves past the roles that husband and wife are each in. Yes, a wife helps and of course talks with her husband. But why is she trying to make a decision at all? Why is she coming to him like that? I think the picture is so much clearer when the wife asks questions, is looking for wisdom, comes to the table wanting to listen and understand. "The final word" sounds like the woman is finally succumbing. Maybe it is this way sometimes? But I have trouble understanding why we would want to describe our relationships like this. I think we should look at our husbands as a king of the home. A good king, a king under the headship of the Perfect King. Why do we come into discussions like "the final word" was a debate or coming to an agreement, instead of trusting that he has the best in mind for you and your family? That he really does have wisdom that you don't? Sometimes he will seek the queen to discuss as well and the queen of the house isn't a fool. But she isn't the king. The king and queen don't come together, discuss, and he gets "the final word". He already has the authority, he doesn't need to go over it with the wifey, doesn't need her approval. And yet, he often still communicates and listens and attempts to understand her feelings, because he loves his wife and sees that she has thoughts that are valuable to the kingdom, especially in the domains she works in so often. And remember, he's a GOOD king. So good, that he wants to please the highest King of Kings. I may be using this final word phrase way deeper than others may mean it, so I am trying to understand the phrase in the way they use it. In my perspective, it just doesn't seem adequate for the situation.
(Sorry for such a long comment. I am passionate about this. Hopefully the comment isn't too disruptive and may spark more thoughts for others.)
This was wonderful. Thank you.
The final word as in most affairs at the house are delegated to me but then there are some things only he can decide. Are you familiar with subsidiarity?
I think that's a worthwhile discussion about household tasks and delegation. Proverbs 31 shows a clear picture that a wife can still handle things in the household like you are referring to. That whole topic would certainly have unique examples for each family, unique wisdom from each king and his kingdom, and certainly much thought on the running of a home.
But I find the phrase inadequate to define headship. I am not sure why it's the default response from women who try to prove that she respects her husband as the head of the family. I would challenge someone to think about why they believe this phrase is adequate to define a husband's role in the home.
Also, I think respect has more to do with just words and is a whole demeanor. Do we approach our husband like a good king of our home? Act like that around him? Respect him in our demeanor like that? Like a queen in the presence of her king? I certainly fail at this every day. But I do see it as right and good.
Instead, picturing the whole scene as a man getting the final word in a midst of words like all the words said in the discussion have equal input and he just gets a slightly bigger vote, I have trouble reconciling these two pictures. Reigning, loving, good king vs a bigger vote in a government, the final say.
It is a fascinating discussion to me though and I am very open to hearing how someone would describe this in a way I can grasp. It's a phrase that almost sounds like it means nothing. I cannot even imagine a scenario or example of a final word happening and that it would be a good descriptor of male headship.
I read your other comments and you seem more personal to the background dynamics than I am. I am just a longtime reader/listener and have benefitted from this author, whom I have never met. So I am commenting on just the beliefs and descriptions in this post. I hope that helps to understand my silly, rambling passion on this subject. May God bless you this day.
Thank you for republishing this and for all of the work that you do. Praying for you and your family as always
I continue to pray regularly for the Fisk family--you, your beautiful wife, and your precious children. "Stop the White Noise" was my favorite podcast. I loved how you and Meredith modeled marriage and family life for us to witness. That was a true gift that taught me a lot. While I am devastated with the recent developments, I look forward to your update that God is restoring things within your family.
As a woman reader, sometimes I am left wondering what all is going on out there. Maybe because I had and have a great relationship with my dad, I do not seem to have this kind of angst in my life. I have been with my husband for over thirty years. Neither one of us is perfect and I can be bossy. But when push comes to shove, I know he gets the deciding vote. So when I hear all these power dynamic woes, I wonder who are these people? It just seems so foreign to me. Like a foreign language. I don't get it. But perhaps that is all I need to say here publicly. Discretion is a good thing and I would do well to remember that. But Jonathan Fisk, I have reached out to you so many times and you have often dodged any of my help or concern. I am still here. The older sister type figure who does not hate men and certainly does not hate you. Because honestly, what the heck is going on with you , dude? You should have my email, and even my address and phone number.
Am I in the right place? Is this where we are to comment? I have a very narrow band of social media in which I participate and I am not familiar with this platform. I think I was first commenting on Titus' post, LOL. But I did want to comment on the Fisk's latest newsletter. I can certainly see with the unfortunate timing how someone could think this 10/25 post was specifically about Meredith rather than a more general word on the subject. Everyhting did change so quickly back then and we subscribers and supporters were left confused in the whirlwind and secrecy. I still am, frankly. I commend Jonathan for not gossiping about Meredith or the rest of situation but the vacuum of information has really sucked. Ha, I wasn't even trying to make a pun there. Anyways. I know the Jonathan Fisk we all have known and loved for more than a decade now is still in there. I hope this secrecy and confusion is relieved someday and we get to see that guy again.
This is the kind of content that Christians today need more than ever. Exceedingly rare.
God bless all women walking the talk of authentic faith and may it inspire us men to be a better "Bride" for Christ daily.
Many good things said.
I am not surprised that women are fallen creatures. I (and not a few good men) are weary of being scolded for pointing out that they are, as though this somehow were proof of our own rapscallioness and as though we would do better to baptize the evil “good” and carry on walking in darkness.
Thank you for reading.